What do you think about Religion?

[Hypervalor]

Hey guys, what do you think about religions? Is it good? bad?

Discuss :D

[Fugazi]

I'm not a religious person (though I went to Catholic school), but I think these kind of discussions usually end with arguments and stuff, so maybe it's not a great idea.

Personally I couldn't care less, but a lot of people are very serious about that sort of thing.

[Gikko]

Yes well i'm agnostic... i hate the bible... end of story, however i have found that most females prefered a circumcised penis, so if at all possible, become jewish lol...

[mafiamanjoe]

You're an agnostic and hate the Bible? I thought being agnostic, you're open to anything because you're not sure what you believe in. Why do you hate the Bible?

[Gikko]

The bible contradicts itself... which is stupid.... which is why dont like the bible, that and its like really long lol

[mafiamanjoe]

Can you name a contradiction?

[Gikko]

Adam and Eve's children. They must have reproduced with their mother to have brought more children to the world. OR Adam and Eve had another child, a girl and then the 2 males must have reproduced with their sister... either way, they bible at that point promotes incest. Where normally it says that incest is wrong.

[mafiamanjoe]

First of all, is that a contradiction of something?

Adam and Eve had many children. To get right to the point, their children did have to marry one another to reproduce. The Bible doesn't promote incest. It wasn't against God's law until the book of Leviticus, a couple thousand years after Adam & Eve. Even the word "incest" was a word we created in the last few hundred years.

If God made Adam & Eve, they were perfect humans in all respects including their genes. God told them to multiply. But Adam sinned (eating the forbidden fruit) and God put a curse on all mankind (decendants of Adam) that brought all sorts of problems into the world... including gene problems.
After a couple thousand years of the sin curse and reproducing amongst close relatives, that is why God made the law against it in Leviticus as I mentioned above.

But that's another story. We were talking contradictions! ;)
... and as far as the title of this thread goes, we were just saying what we thought about religion. Kind of a general question really....but anyway...

[Hypervalor]

The bible sounds like a fantasy story for me lol. (btw, im not catholic)

No one here is buddist? :O

[mafiamanjoe]

Unfortunately, the Bible has been interpreted as a fantasy book.

Are you buddhist?

[Gikko]

Buddhas or usually fat as statues lol... urm, are you a Buddha?

[Hypervalor]

I'm a buddha and I own a Death Note... I'm kira buddha fear me!

lol jk, im not buddha

just a little buddhist but not 100%, near 0% lol

[Gikko]

lol are you fat? lol XD

[Ryokan]

Gikko I think you're Atheist, not Agnostic. Agnostics are open to religion but don't necessarily believe in one specific religion. Atheists don't believe in god at all and usually think that religious people are stupid.

[Gikko]

I respect peoples religion and do not mock them for it, i do kinda believe in god but just not the bible,

[Ryokan]

Oh okay, so you just have problems with the bible specifically, not the idea of god.

[Hypervalor]

Looks like it's causing conflict :/

[Ryokan]

what conflict?

[mafiamanjoe]

I respect peoples religion and do not mock them for it, i do kinda believe in god but just not the bible,

Why do you believe (kinda) in God? If you believed in God, why not the Bible since God wrote the Bible.

[Hypervalor]

God talk himself in third person?

[imreallol]

Didnt Eve eat the apple first?
I dont get by Adam gets all the blame :O

[Hypervalor]

I think it's a snake who told Eve to tell adam to eat the apple... how the hell a snake can talk!

[Fugazi]

Did you not watch Jungle Book? :eek: Talking snakes are real!

[mafiamanjoe]

Didnt Eve eat the apple first?
I dont get by Adam gets all the blame :O

Eve did eat the forbidden fruit first. They are both to blame. The reference to Adam is because he is basically the father of all mankind.

I think it's a snake who told Eve to tell adam to eat the apple... how the hell a snake can talk!
The serpent was Satan who tempted Eve to eat the fruit.

[mafiamanjoe]

That's part of the fun, isn't it? hehe
Yes, I believe in God.

[Hypervalor]

Why god created Satan?

[mafiamanjoe]

God created Lucifer who was an angel that rebelled and tried to be better than God. God kicked him out of Heaven and his name was changed to Satan.

[Hypervalor]

why Satan didn't try to be good after being kicked?

[Epsilon]

So god created Lucifer... I thought God was something like "perfect".
Why didn't he kicked himself from paradise for this mistake? As he did for Adam and Eve?

I can see it coming: "It was not a mistake it was on purpose blablabla".

[Hypervalor]

Is buddha is more better in pacifism than god in bible?

[Gikko]

God did not write the bible, jesus did, didnt he? but i know that god did not write the bible. No one writes about themself in thirsd person,,,

Gikko, Great forum king of 2008 on the mafia corruption forum, killed the mighty hypervalor and ravished his land. Gikko is now world renound scientist etctetttcc,,n BLAH!

no make sense talking in 3rd person, god = wouldnt do it!

[Hypervalor]

lol, talking in third person to himself is arrogant, dont u think?

[Dave]

I know Christ is God for certain. You hear about people saying you can't see em you can't smell em and you can't touch him so he's not real but let me ask you this can you see the planet Mars? Can you touch the planet mars? and lastly can you smell the planet? All these questions would be answered no. You may say you seen pictures well same thing with God I can say I heard him talk to me doesn't make it false or true. To say there's no God is saying that without reason why? Because let me ask you this? Do you know anyone or anything that was created from nothing? If you do I'd love to see it, it seems illogical to think that all this we have happened by chance. You may say with all the bad things in the world how can God allow it? Well he's not your babysitter, He's not gonna save everyone from certain doom. Life will go on and He will not stop it.

I attend church atleast twice aweek and when I have free time I help to run various activies to help spread the word of our lord, I also give 10% of my total annual earnings to New Life Baptist church so this great work may continue.

[Ryokan]

Yes you can see planet mars quite easily with the naked eye, it looks like a red star. Also, what created God? Did God come out of nothing?

[zephan]

thats a good question

[Hypervalor]

What created god? This is gonna be an infinite Q&A.

If x created god so what created x? y? z? a? b? c? or d?

If it's d, so what created d? y? z? a? 1? 2? 3? 4? 5? 900? 100000000000000?

[mafiamanjoe]

Ah, so many questions after I logged out, lol. I'll be glad to answer to the best of my abilities.

First, I'll give more detail about Lucifer/Satan. Lucifer thought he could be more powerful than God so 1/3 of the angels joined him to overpower God. It did not work and God kicked all of them out. Now they are Satan and his demons. God then created Hell to send them there as punishment. A common misconception is that Satan is the ruler of Hell. That is not true. Satan is not there now. When he does go there, he will be in anguish just like everyone else there. There will be no ruler of Hell.

Jesus did not write the Bible. Many men inspired by God wrote the Bible over a period of many years.

Dave is in the right thinking. He was using Mars as an example. Don't get on him about how you can see it with your own eye. lol...

Who created God? No one. He has always existed and always will. Humans cannot comprehend this because we are restricted to time. God created time. Before the world/universe was created, there was no time.

<gasp> how's that for answers!!! :D

[Hypervalor]

So what is the thing before the world/universe was created?

[mafiamanjoe]

Hmm, I don't know what "thing" you're talking about. There was God, his angels and Heaven. That's it.

[Bruizer]

A common misconception is that Satan is the ruler of Hell. That is not true. Satan is not there now. When he does go there, he will be in anguish just like everyone else there. There will be no ruler of Hell.


So where is Satan if he is not in hell?

[Hypervalor]

How angels are made with what?

Dont tell me god has magics >_>

[saint]

such an inteesting topic,
i study religion in school for last 4 years and even though i am no a strong beliver in god and heavan, i really fing it interesting.
hypervalor what are you asking about angels?????

[Hypervalor]

how angels are born

[Ryokan]

Who created God? No one. He has always existed and always will. Humans cannot comprehend this because we are restricted to time. God created time. Before the world/universe was created, there was no time.

Pardon if I am completely blasphemous in saying that this concept is identical to that of the aliens in the book Slaughterhouse Five. I wonder if that was intentional by the author (maybe a scientologist?).

[Hypervalor]

Did God created himself?

[Ryokan]

I made a very long a detailed comment, but the forum logged me out while I was writing it, so I give up.

[mafiamanjoe]

Aw man, I know how that feels. Sorry that happened, buddy.

Bruizer, Satan is here on earth right now....

[Hypervalor]

If he is here right now, so why we cant see him?

[Dave]

-_-

Think about it! Devil = Evil...

[Hypervalor]

Where the devils? lol, don't tell me some humans are devils >_>

[Ryokan]

Unfortunately, the bible has been translated and re-translated and re-interpreted many many times. I wouldn't put it past many of the monks of old to put in their own little twists and change small parts to their own liking. I think just being translated back and forth between so many languages alone could be to blame for the fact that the bible doesn't always make sense and has various loopholes.

[mafiamanjoe]

What doesn't make sense?
And what loopholes?

The Bible was translated into many (most) languages... that doesn't mean it was translated to one language, then the next, then the next. The original language was Hebrew and then translated from there.

[Ryokan]

Even just translated through one language there are many concepts that can only be expressed in one language properly. What may take one language one word may take another language a whole sentence to grasp the same meaning. It's like the game chinese telephone, but halfway through the game someone has to translate into another language. Also at least 1/3 of the original bible testaments were burned at least 1,000 years ago because the religious leaders of the time didn't like what it said.

[Hypervalor]

hmm, too much catholicism here. why not talking some other religion like buddhist? :P

[Ryokan]

What about buddism? It's not a big of a target as the major religions and less is known about it in practice because who here knows a buddists? I certainly don't know any buddists.

[street]

talk about islam and the 70 virgins whos gonna sodomize u soon as u reach heaven.

[Ryokan]

hahaha yeah

[Hypervalor]

so is islam a good religion?

[Gikko]

urm, i don't think so, except for the circumcision bit because its healthy to have no urm, skin over it... lol

[Hypervalor]

Ejh? why its healthy?????

[deadatrest]

Gikko you got soooo ownd mafiamanjoe in that little flaming

[Hypervalor]

come on gikko, tell me why! you was been circumcisioned right?

[Gikko]

Nope, im not religious lol... anyways,
1) It is healthier for you, you have less chance of getting diseases and such
2) Apparently girls like it better when its circumcised lol
and that's all really :)

[Ryokan]

Yeah, girls don't like the d**k-cheese, or the possibility of finding d**k-cheese

[Hypervalor]

Why girls like it better when its curcumcised?

[Ryokan]

Yes? are you re-asking the question that we just answered or asking whether it answers the question you already asked?

[Gikko]

i dunno lol... They just do, my friend told me i should get it done so i think summin might happen except she lives miles and a sea away lol

[Hypervalor]

so does that mean doing sex with a circumcised d**k will hurt you badly?

[Gikko]

Only for a couple of days or so after having the circumcision...

[Hypervalor]

it's ewwwwwwwwww..

[Hypervalor]

we are talkng bout religion and now, we fall in the subject of circumsiced d**k, stuff like that...

[Gikko]

I will soon close this thread unless it is veered back on subject. Just a heads up :)

[Hypervalor]

ok time to return to the subject.

So I think religion cause wars and conflict. Do you think the same think as i think?

[Gikko]

Well, there was the whole Hitler thing so i agree with you on that. Who goes out and just decides to try and irradiate a whole religion and its believers? Hitler didn't but he still tried to wipe Jew's off the face of the earth... so he started a world war of Jew's and the Treaty or Versailles.

[street]

omg.. get urself castrated already!

[Hypervalor]

Wait, castrated? what is that?

[G dog]

its what they do to animals so they cant reproduce....get it? i dont wanna give 2 much details lol

[Ryokan]

It is something that some religious people do so they don't have urges (the family jewels are forcibly removed). Anyway, the religion argument is basically did God create humans or did humans create God? if you look how much suffering goes on in the world, seemingly for nothing, then I can see how humans could have created God as a reason to go on when their family and friends die for seemingly no reason.

[Gikko]

You have your testicles cut off or the pipe to your penis snipped... you can't have kids...

and ryoken made a good point :)

[Hypervalor]

stupid to cut off

[Ryokan]

Not for religious people, and back in the day they didn't have the same technology, so they basically just had the option to forcibly remove the family jewels in the name of God. Some people get very devout in their beliefs and will do anything to prove that they are pure in their intentions. Back in the day monks would have to castrate themselves with something like a nutcracker (no pun intended) in order to show the depth of their faith in God to reward them after death.

[mafiamanjoe]

I was out of town a couple days... So let's see what I missed other than circumcision and castration. Geez...

Even just translated through one language there are many concepts that can only be expressed in one language properly. What may take one language one word may take another language a whole sentence to grasp the same meaning. It's like the game chinese telephone, but halfway through the game someone has to translate into another language. Also at least 1/3 of the original bible testaments were burned at least 1,000 years ago because the religious leaders of the time didn't like what it said.

I understand what you're trying to say about the translation part so I'll ask again. What doesn't make sense and what loopholes are you referring to?

Now, you've brought up a new detail so please explain the 1/3 of the original Bible testaments being burned and where do you get this information?

Gikko you got soooo ownd mafiamanjoe in that little flaming

Just to clarify, I don't try to "own" anyone nor "flame". I answered/responded to a statement in a quite civil manner.

... Anyway, the religion argument is basically did God create humans or did humans create God? if you look how much suffering goes on in the world, seemingly for nothing, then I can see how humans could have created God as a reason to go on when their family and friends die for seemingly no reason.

suffering for nothing? people die for seemingly no reason? I don't understand why creation of God in people's minds would help that. It certainly doesn't sound like a basis for many men from different parts of the world on different time lines to write the many portions of the Bible which talks about God throughout it. What happens these days is a basic rejection of God until something bad happens and then they blame God. So it's almost the opposite of what you're saying. It's like atheism until they need someone to blame. Don't believe me? Here's an example, when catastrophic events occur, non-religious people always question people of Christian faith asking "where is your God now?" It's all too common a response.

I'll end this with the beginning:

The Bible starts off quite directly... "In the beginning, God created the heaven and the earth"

============
If anyone has questions of religion you prefer to ask in private, pm me.

[Ryokan]

There are many things that are contradictory in the bible, also the history channel tells me of the testaments that were burned. When the things, for example the plague, kill people in long horrible deaths for no reason of their own, people look to the skies and ask "why did my three year old daughter just die a slow and horrible death? she was always good child, what did she do to deserve this? Why did she die and not me? I would willingly die a thousand times if only she could have lived. Why couldn't I protect her?" and then a religious person comes over and says "God works in mysterious ways, humans cannot fathom why or when God calls his children back to him, but rest assured, your young daughter was pure of heart and is in heaven where you will rejoin her when you die. If you worship God and do God's work then you will rejoin your beloved daughter in heaven and be eternally happy in paradise with God." The man can then either chose to continue to beat himself up over the thought of his daughter's slow and painful demise, or he can chose to think that his daughter is "in a better place" and find the will to go on with his life in thinking that he will someday see her again and they will both be happy.

[Ryokan]

P.S. Although the first sentence seems relatively easy to understand, the rest of the bible gets quite convoluted and ambiguous.

[Ryokan]

Post Post Script:

When humans were just beginning, before written word, even a common language, sometimes the sky would rain fire, and huge crashing sounds would come out of seemingly nowhere, even the very ground would shake for seemingly no cause, people wondered why. A volcano would erupt, spewing lava and ash for as far as the eye could see and people would wonder why. They knew that usually inanimate objects didn't move unless a human or animal moved them so they thought, "there must be a being even larger than us who is doing all this". What I wonder is, what makes your god any less made up than his? There are many religions all across the globe and each claims that the other is not valid, so how can you prove that Pele, goddess of flame, does not exist and that the Christian god does? What makes the weekly ritual of going to Catholic church and "eating the body and drinking the blood of Christ" any different from sacrificing a virgin girl to the angry volcano in order to maintain peace? How is worshiping an effigy of a man bleeding to death on a cross any less sadistic from sacrificing a goat to the gods to ask for a good crop?

[Ryokan]

Post Post Post Script

All basically serve the same purpose, to give people something to do in order to make things better. Without the idea of god there is nothing that people can do to make things better when times are hard. With any god, if there is a natural disaster or someone dies or something unfathomable happens, people can pray to god and tell themselves that they did something to make things better. Otherwise they just have to sit and worry over the many things that could just randomly go wrong, with a god they can pray and think they helped, and if something does happen then that is God's wish (someone is in control, there is a plan, we're not just randomly stuck on some rock waiting for an end to a pointless existence). It gives people a purpose when they cannot find one on their own, or had one and lost it.

[mafiamanjoe]

There are many things that are contradictory in the bible...

I figured that's what you meant by loopholes... however, I was asking for an example. What loopholes, what contradictions?

When the things, for example the plague, kill people in long horrible deaths for no reason of their own, people look to the skies and ask "why did my three year old daughter just die a slow and horrible death? she was always good child, what did she do to deserve this? Why did she die and not me? I would willingly die a thousand times if only she could have lived. Why couldn't I protect her?" and then a religious person comes over and says "God works in mysterious ways, humans cannot fathom why or when God calls his children back to him, but rest assured, your young daughter was pure of heart and is in heaven where you will rejoin her when you die. If you worship God and do God's work then you will rejoin your beloved daughter in heaven and be eternally happy in paradise with God." The man can then either chose to continue to beat himself up over the thought of his daughter's slow and painful demise, or he can chose to think that his daughter is "in a better place" and find the will to go on with his life in thinking that he will someday see her again and they will both be happy.

There are certain religious people who believe that it was an action of their own that causes illness and death. There are other religious people who do not think this way. In a general way, the introduction of sin at the beginning with Adam & Eve brought evil in every way into the world. Humans were designed by God in his image and were not intended to have disease and pain and death. Even the environment and plants and animals were affected by the introduction of sin. Roses had no thorns, lions lived peacefully with lambs. Even all animals were vegetarians before sin. So in your example, the actions of the girl and/or her family may not have had any reason on her illness, nor did God make her get ill.
In a way, your right regarding "God calls his children back to him". Unfortunately, people don't go to Heaven by doing good works or God's work or worshipping an "effigy of a man bleeding to death on a cross". In the Bible, God explains that only through Him (Jesus) that we can go to Heaven and not by our works... otherwise, people would be saying "look how good I am" and bragging about their good deeds.

P.S. Although the first sentence seems relatively easy to understand, the rest of the bible gets quite convoluted and ambiguous.

That's why I am trying to answer specific questions for you....and anyone who cares to know.

Post Post Script:

When humans were just beginning, before written word, even a common language, sometimes the sky would rain fire, and huge crashing sounds would come out of seemingly nowhere, even the very ground would shake for seemingly no cause, people wondered why. A volcano would erupt, spewing lava and ash for as far as the eye could see and people would wonder why. They knew that usually inanimate objects didn't move unless a human or animal moved them so they thought, "there must be a being even larger than us who is doing all this". What I wonder is, what makes your god any less made up than his? There are many religions all across the globe and each claims that the other is not valid, so how can you prove that Pele, goddess of flame, does not exist and that the Christian god does? What makes the weekly ritual of going to Catholic church and "eating the body and drinking the blood of Christ" any different from sacrificing a virgin girl to the angry volcano in order to maintain peace? How is worshiping an effigy of a man bleeding to death on a cross any less sadistic from sacrificing a goat to the gods to ask for a good crop?

When humans were just beginning, they were in the Garden of Eden and they did have a common language where God verbally spoke with them. Your description of how humans began sounds like someone was there taking notes as it happened. How does one know that there was not a common language or volcanoes erupting? I've indirectly already answered this but the reason why "my God" is less made up is because we do have the Bible which documents everything we need to know. The religions across the globe have their own differences. Some take their philosophies directly from the Bible and some leave out some details while others add their own beliefs.
I cannot prove or disprove the existance of Pele nor for that matter can I prove or disprove the existance of God. I do however have that repeated answer.. the Bible. ...which also says without Faith it is impossible to please Him.

So before moving on, please let me know what contradictions/loopholes/questions you may have concerning the Bible.

[Ryokan]

My responses are from the view that humans might have created god, therefore, they did not spring from one place and created different languages, as they have. And the bible was written by humans no matter whether you believe in God or not. The bible was not even written by Jesus was it? (I could be wrong). Wasn't it written by his twelve disciples? Who actually wrote the bible? Also, do you believe that the bible is to be taken literally or figuratively? If you take it literally then I guess there is no ambiguous meaning because its literal, but I think even then most lines can be interpreted differently. If not then how are there so many different religions that are based on the bible? If the bible had only one interpretable meaning then those who believed in the bible would only make up one religion, but there are at least three major different religions based on the bible and countless smaller ones. How can so many people all read the same book and get so many different interpretations from it if the bible is simple and straight forward to read?

[mafiamanjoe]

...And the bible was written by humans no matter whether you believe in God or not. The bible was not even written by Jesus was it? (I could be wrong). Wasn't it written by his twelve disciples? Who actually wrote the bible? Also, do you believe that the bible is to be taken literally or figuratively? If you take it literally then I guess there is no ambiguous meaning because its literal, but I think even then most lines can be interpreted differently. If not then how are there so many different religions that are based on the bible? If the bible had only one interpretable meaning then those who believed in the bible would only make up one religion, but there are at least three major different religions based on the bible and countless smaller ones. How can so many people all read the same book and get so many different interpretations from it if the bible is simple and straight forward to read?

The Bible was written by man through the inspiration of God:

"II Timothy 3:16 - All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness"

No, it was not written by Jesus nor his 12 disciples. Well, not all of them anyway. A few books of the old testament were written by Moses. A few thousand years later, the first 5 books of the New Testament was written by Matthew (one of Jesus' disciples). I don't know about all the rest. I know I and II Peter was written by Peter (another disciple). Regardless, they lived in different places at different times and through the inspiration of God, wrote books of the Bible that mesh together.

Well what are you referring to when you ask literal or figurative? Thou shalt not kill means you shouldn't kill. That's literal. This is true that there are many religions based on the Bible... some are loosely based and some are firmly based on the Bible. I indicated this in the last post. Let's look at an example. Baptists believe in Heaven & Hell.. Catholics believe in those but also Purgatory. Where did that belief come from? Presbyterians are based on the Bible and I would say they were loosely based. Not an insult to any religion, just what I have seen. In the end, all that matters is if a person has accepted or rejected Jesus in their life.

"John 14:6 - Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

By the way, do you personally believe in God or anything? What do you believe in?

So.... do you have any contradictions for me to decipher? :)

[Ryokan]

How far away were the individual books written from each other? How was the connection made between the books? Do you believe that there was a literal forbidden tree and a literal snake and that Adam took a bite from a literal apple? These things could all be metaphors for other things, some people believe that all these things literally happened and other people think that they are symbolic.

I myself am Agnostic, I can't say that I know whether or not their is a God because there is no proof that a God exists, and there is no certain proof that a God doesn't exist. I don't go to church or pray, but I don't fault those who do because even if there is no god the idea of a God gives many people hope and helps many people through hard times. Though religion has been abused in many ways too, such as crusades and the witch hunts (and in other religions human sacrifices). But I think that the original intent of religion is good.

When I think about why there is so much suffering in the world today (or example starving kids in Africa) I ask myself, if there is a God why did it create such suffering? Then I reference Adam and Eve and wonder why God made humans imperfect. God could have easily created humans that were incapable of evil, humans that did not have the capacity to do wrong. If God had created a perfect Adam and Eve they would have not even been able to be tempted, they would be perfect and do no wrong. But then I think about what life would be like if everyone was perfect, if the only choice was to do good, would doing the right thing be worth anything if no one had any other choice? Would living really be living if everyone only had the capacity to do what was right? sure there would be no suffering and communism would work perfectly, but would anyone really be happy? If you could only feel happiness, would you really be happy? I think not. I don't think that life would be worth anything if it was perfect all the time. Kind of like how American kids don't take full advantage of free school, even reject it, because it's free. In countries where any type of schooling costs thousands of dollars children work as hard as they can to do the best in school, they take school very seriously and appreciate their education, while in the US kids find their free education a chore and readily fail. By making the choice of evil an option God gave choosing good a value. If everything and everyone was perfect I don't think anyone would be happy, because being happy would be the norm, it would have no value because it would be everywhere and accessible to everyone, like grains of sand on the beach it would be worthless. Because of that I think that either the creator(s) of the bible was a genius and (at least the part about Adam and Eve) that it is the greatest classic ever written, or perhaps there was divine intervention and that God wanted to tell us why there is suffering and to not lose hope, because once we understood suffering and had the chance to make our own decisions, we could truly appreciate heaven.

Part of me wants to hope that there is a god, so that when I die it's not all over and that this existence was worth something, or will be someday. But I am partially a skeptic and cannot fully believe in something that cannot be proven by anything other than a book that doesn't really make sense to me. In my mind I can rationalize and argue both sides (to an extent). But wither way, no side can for sure be proven, so I am just honest with myself and admit that I don't know for sure either. Because I am always asking myself "why?" I can't really go that deep into religion without coming upon somewhat blind faith. But also, I can't be atheist because I find it very depressing, because to me it would mean that nothing matters and that all our efforts would go to nothing and that all of our great thoughts will have just been a waste of time. But that's just a point of view. I suppose it depends on whether you value the journey or the destination more. I'm not all that confident that my life will be fulfilling and hope that there is happiness at the end in case I mess up. But I suppose other people want to live their life to the fullest and don't want to have to worry about what some greater being thinks about their choices in life.

[cameronphillips]

I cant say any thing about it as i am not really religion i never grew up with it and i hate it when ppl preach about god and stuff like that I just find it very annoying but i guess it can be good 2 to have someone can bring miracles at very dark times :) i even prayed a few years about that my dog would survive after getting hit by a car and she did :D

so i have to say it has its goods and its bads

[mafiamanjoe]

SEE PREVIOUS RESPONSE ABOVE

Ryokan,
I am understanding what you are saying. I do believe there was a literal tree with a literal forbidden (unknown) fruit that Satan in a literal snake's form tempted Eve who then offered it to Adam. If they were metaphors for something else, any of the many religions would have indicated what these would be metaphors for. Aside from that, the way the Bible is written makes it quite clear that it was not a metaphor. As is the description of the creation of the universe. Someone had asked if the seven days of creation could have meant seven million years. The Bible clearly describes how this is not so...whether one believes it or not is a different story.

As far as your question of God creating imperfect humans... in a sense, you actually continued on and answered that yourself. First I'll say that in physical form, God did create perfect humans but the introduction of sin added imperfection to mankind. I have to certainly agree with you as this would have been my answer to say that if God made us incapable of sin/temptation, then we would be created without freedom of choice. From the beginning, God has created consequences for not adhering to his commands. God tells Adam & Eve not to eat from the tree... they chose to disobey and are punished.. as is all of mankind.

The proof or non-proof of the existance of God should not get in the way of the physical proof of intelligent design. There are so many details in nature that could not possibly have come from an accident.

Let me know if you want to know more confusing things about the Bible. :)

[Ryokan]

well, in a way, God's "pact" (for lack of a better word) with adam and eve reminds me of the pact between parents and their children, "you follow my rules under my roof" and for as long as the child obeys their parent's rule they are able to live a relatively carefree childhood, but eventually they all want to make their own decisions and break their parent's rule and for that they are cast out and allowed/forced to create their own world with their own rules which their children will break and so on and so forth. I know that many kids don't have this kind of childhood, but theoretically the life of a child should be relatively carefree, (they don't have to worry about shelter or food or clothes) which reminds me of eden. This is kind of why I see the story as more of a classic, because this idea is repeated throughout all of human existence, everyone must make their own mistakes and carve out their own identity on this earth. As for holes in the bible, well it is HOLY (pun haha). But yeah I have tried to read the bible and got through the first 7 pages with the biggest headache and only a vague understanding of what it was saying, this may be partially my own fault, but needing someone else to translate the meaning makes the bible ambiguous to me, and part of being ambiguous means that some translations (translation of the meaning) may clash with others, making the bible at times contradictory.

[street]

i dont think i wanna read all that..

[imreallol]

I have been in a Christian school, public school, Catholic school, religions I have no idea about schools..

I have faith that the Bible speaks the truth..
But One thing I never understood was that my teachers always made fun of evolution and how they have no solid evidence of it happening.. How they have no proof that the world is actually billions of years old not just a couple thousand years..

They say that carbon dating is based on how fast carbon-14s halflife is, etc etc
How they base how old bone on how far down they are located in the ground..
And how they base how old the land is based on what bones are there..
And how it works in a circle and there is no evidence in between..


What I never understood is.. How do we know that the Bible speaks the truth? How do we know it was written by disciples of God?
How do we know it wasn't written by my 941 year old neighbor? :(
They say, the Bible is the truth because God says it is, and the Bible says God exists because the Bible says so...

I forgot what It is called, sorry don't remember, the Triple Entity or something :(
God the Father, Jesus Christ the Lord, and the Holy Spirit?

God says the Bible is the truth and Jesus Christ is the only path to take to being saved. The Bible says God is real because it is written here and God says the Bible is the truth because I say so and Jesus Christ is my son, me, and your path to salvation??????

Can someone please clear this up? :(

[imreallol]

Sorry if that did not make sense, because I re-read it and It made minimal sense to me :(
Don't want to fix the errors either :)

[mafiamanjoe]

Ryo,
The first half of your response sounded like an example as I would give! :D ... There are many stories in the Bible where God sets an example of how we are to live. In a sense, I suppose you could say the Adam & Eve story is how a parent should discipline the wrong doings of their children.
The first seven pages of the Bible would be Genesis beginning with the creation of the world. I assume you mean the pages following the creation section because the first several verses are quite clear. I read them as a child and it made sense to me. I don't want to sound like I am insulting your intelligence.. as I am certainly not. Regardless of your understanding of the first seven pages, you can't say that the rest of the Bible must have contradictions because it needs to be translated (or taught from a preacher). A preacher, in most part, is a Bible scholar who spends lots of time studying the Bible and passes on their knowledge of the Bible to others. Think of school. You aren't expected to pick up a Spanish Book and learn on your own... you are taught by a Spanish teacher.. or learn math from a Math teacher, and so on. You wouldn't say that there are contradictions in those books because someone had to translate or explain the information in them.

imreallol,
Believe it or not, your questions made sense. :)
When it comes down to it, a lot of it is faith. Not all of it... a lot of it. But as I began to explain before, there are physical proofs that verify different things from the Bible. The problem is the interpretation. Where science says there is physical proof of millions of years, the same physical proof can show the Bible was right. Let's just use the dating tools as an example. What I have read, the calculations of a fossil (or whatever) begin by giving an estimated amount of time before starting. That would bias the results before you even started if you told it x amount of millions of years.
What if you flew in a plane from New York to California and you wanted to estimate the length of a house that you flew over going 800 mph. You would get completely skewed results. That's the problem with the measuring of the rock layers.
Not to mention the unexplainable fossils that show errors in the evolutionary theory.
How about "fossil graveyards"? When have you ever heard of a group of animals all dying in the same location and slowly decompose and then fossilize? It doesn't happen. What makes more sense is a world wide flood buried them quickly in one spot and sediment buried them and then they fossilized.
Sorry for the long responses but sometimes I can't help it!!! :)

[Ryokan]

Well, to your response to imrealol, a volcanic eruption would also explain the mass burial things. Wouldn't a creature decompose differently under water than under ground? but then I suppose that everything is so old that it can't really be determined for sure either way. So no one can really prove for sure, scientists have what may or may not be accurate carbon dating, and religions have what may or may not be an accurate depiction of how the universe was created. That's why I'm agnostic, I'm open to the idea that either one could be right :D

[mafiamanjoe]

Yes volcanic eruptions too...
It is believed, based on Bible passages, that the earth shook and fountains sprang up (not just rain) with the famous Noah flood. During this event, multiple volcanoes certainly must have erupted as well.

[Hypervalor]

Don't you think the noah flood is a bit exagerated?

[Ryokan]

Well scientists think that the arctic used to have tropical climate so I don't think a large flood is too outrageous, but the arc that held all the world's animals is kind of unbelievable.

[Hypervalor]

I wonder how they build it when they need a lot of nails

[Ryokan]

yeah, that and a lot of wood, the size of it would be epic in order to hold all the animals that it claims to, and yet there is no trace of something that huge ever existing.

[mafiamanjoe]

Here's a few things to keep in mind. There are stories of worldwide floods in other cultures and other religions that are not Bible-based. Would that not add to the validity of it really happening?
The ark itself probably took around 100 years to build. Don't think of Evan Almighty! Everyone lived much longer back then. Several hundred years old. They had plenty of nails. They built buildings and cities back then. Just because it was a long time ago doesn't mean they were less intelligent. In fact, I believe it was quite the opposite. I believe Adam was created as the smartest man and it gradually went downhill from there over time.

What comes to mind when someone thinks about the ark is a characature with giraffes poking their heads up out of the ark and everyone squeezed in. It wasn't like that at all. There was enough room to fit every "kind" of animal inside the ark with room to spare.
I quoted "kind" because people imagine it was two of every species. Not necessarily true. Noah did not need to have every species of dog, for instance. There is detailed information regarding DNA that indicates all the current day species of dogs could have come from one pair of a kind of dog over 4,000 years (approximately how long ago the flood was).
I'm busy at work right now but later tonight or tomorrow, I can find some info on the actual size of the ark. Here is a website that has some basic details of the ark and also the reference to the dog example. I own a couple of the books from this website as well. Not done reading them yet but anyway... :p

http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/faq/noah.asp

[Ryokan]

I don't know why you think everyone lived longer back then. I do think there could have been a flood, but doesn't the idea of several different species of dog coming from one pair indicate a form of evolution (which most religious people are against)?

[Hypervalor]

How come they can live longer in the past? Medecine wasn't advanced at all :S there are no high tech

[mafiamanjoe]

Ryo,
Since you've only read 7 pages into the Bible, you wouldn't have seen where it says different people and the ages when they died. 700 - 900 years was the common age.
Evolution says that a lesser form of life evolves into a greater form of life. What I did not get into earlier was that the 2 of one kind of animal had all the necessary parts of DNA that could be broken down into lesser parts over time. So in my example, the dogs on the ark were the highest quality dogs and as they bred after the flood, the dogs spread across the world losing certain qualities creating new breeds. The new breeds could not breed backwards and gain back the DNA qualities that had been lost. So it's quite the reverse of evolution.

[mafiamanjoe]

Quick side note:

Information cannot come from non-information. Intelligent life and logical thinking humans could not come from accidental creation no matter what amount of time you throw at it. It could only be from Intelligent Design. Considering the sheer complexity of DNA (which there are countless pages to discuss on that subject), the Creator must be even more complex, intelligent and powerful to have created it.

Another Quick side note:

For many years up until the 1800's, the idea of the earth being a few thousand years old was common knowledge. The new idea of millions of years came from an atheistic group who wanted to propose how earth came into being without God. In the 1900's was when the current testing was created for dating rocks/fossils. This, of course, was after it was a commonly accepted concept that the earth was millions of years old. There have been tests done to show the flaws in the dating process. Tests of lava that spilled hundreds or decades ago showed dates of millions of years.

[Ryokan]

What makes the Bible true?

[mafiamanjoe]

What makes it not true?

Aside from faith...
Prophesies in the Bible have come to pass. Some mentioned in the old Testament are fulfilled in the new Testament. Most significantly, the coming of the Messiah. It's mentioned in the old Testament.
The book of Revelation (the last book of the Bible) talks of present day situations.

Re: the ark subject:
The ark was approx. 500 ft. long. Until the Titanic was built, the Ark was the biggest boat created. And probably the largest a wooden ship could have been. Another note about fitting the animals in... it was highly likely that the animals of all kinds were not adults so that saved tons of room.

[Ryokan]

I agree that some of the subjects of the bible are significant today, that's what makes a classic. How does it say that Noah collected these animals that now surround the globe?

[bobis]

I cant say any thing about it as i am not really religion i never grew up with it and i hate it when ppl preach about god and stuff like that I just find it very annoying but i guess it can be good 2 to have someone can bring miracles at very dark times :) i even prayed a few years about that my dog would survive after getting hit by a car and she did :D

so i have to say it has its goods and its bads


Some people are very weird when it comes to religion, I hung out with this guy and I thought he was my friend and when he asked me to go pray with him at his church and I told him I was not religious he stopped talking to me and my other friend is cooler with people that go to his church then he is with me and Ive known him for 7 years but he never gets into religion with me although he is a very religious person but he knows im not and we respect eachothers views. as far as me ive sen no miracles and until I do im an Atheist but none of my friends are Atheist so I im not as close to them as they are with each other.

[mafiamanjoe]

Ryo,
God brought the necessary animals to Noah. I doubt that Noah had to go searching for animals or even herd them into the ark.

bobis,
Seeing is believing then? Is the birth of a human a miracle? Life coming forth from a single cell from two individuals forming into a baby? You may call it the course of nature perhaps. But how is that even possible without design?
On the same subject of childbirth, isn't it a miracle when a baby is born healthy despite the doctors saying he/she has a 2% chance to live?

But since God cannot be proved or disproved, belief either way is by faith. Atheism must be a religion, right? :o

[Ryokan]

Yes technically both conventional religion and Atheism are based on at least somewhat blind faith. But all this stuff about Noah is based on the assumption that the bible is true. What if there is a God but it did not inspire the creation for the bible?

[war_plzz]

im totaly late in this disscussion but i skimmed thur and mafia joe is 100 percent right i my self am a christian and belive in the whole bible not like other religions who are cafeteria style religions who pick and choose which rules suite them best and abide by those and intrepete the bible to the way they want it to be not the way it is

[Ryokan]

The problem with discussions about religion/politics is that nobody ever changes their belief, regardless of the argument rarely does anyone on either side adopts a new belief, yet the inner intention of all those involved is to bring someone over to their side, so in the end everyone is left offended because they were either told what to believe or they failed to recruit someone to their belief system. It's a lose/lose situation.

[mafiamanjoe]

Not really.
I've heard people describe it that way but my intention is not to convert you (or anyone). It's always up to the individual to accept what is given or not. It doesn't offend me if you don't believe what I believe. That's a choice you have to make for yourself.
The joy I get out of doing this is answering questions that people may have. I answered lots concerning the ark/flood along with other questions. It's also interesting to see what other people believe and what people have not heard before. It's fun for me. :o No offense taken whatsoever.

[Ryokan]

cool, I feel the same way. I am also very critical of my own thoughts and, as you may have noticed, like to debate with myself as well as everyone else :D

[Ryokan]

To hopefully breathe new life into my favorite forum; if humans don't evolve, then why does creating a child require the DNA of two parents? why do they get the characteristics of both? why doesn't everyone just look like little copies of adam and eve? what point other than evolution could there be to share the genetic characteristics of both the mother and father?

[mafiamanjoe]

An interesting question.
In my opinion, there could be a number of reasons. The need of two parents could be God setting an example of what marriage should be. You can't take DNA from two women or two men and create a child. Only from a man and a woman.
Why aren't we all little copies of Adam and Eve? My first thought would be because God wanted us to be our own unique person. And perhaps he wanted us to enjoy the diversity of the human population. How boring would it be if everyone looked the same?
Evolution contains the idea that we (and everything else) evolve or get better generation after generation where according to the Bible, it is the opposite. We are diminishing in quality because of the influence of sin from the very beginning.
I'd say also that it is a miracle in itself that a single cell combined from a man and woman create a new person; a new life.

[Ryokan]

Why create humans at all? what's the point? Is sin passed down in the DNA or just in the culture?

[mafiamanjoe]

I can't exactly answer for God to his specific reasons but I would say he created us to serve him/praise him. And instead of creating us to force us to do that, he gave us the "gift" of choice.
The first temptation was Satan (previously known as Lucifer) disguised as a serpent going to Eve and telling her to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Eve took it. Gave it to Adam. God then cursed all mankind and his creation. Couldn't he have just put him in time out? haha
So to answer your question, I don't know if it's a DNA thing but a sinful nature was born into any human in the lineage of Adam. And Adam and Eve being the first humans, that would mean all of mankind was born with a sinful nature.
There are verses also that talk about God cursing his creation including the creation of thorns. Roses weren't originally designed with thorns. Wow!

[Ryokan]

Does that make knowledge a sin? and what do you think about the bible passage in Judges 1:19 "And The Lord was with Judah, and they drove out the inhabitants of the hill, but they could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley for they had iron chariots." Why could The Lord not defeat iron chariots? isn't The Lord God? Why could the one who created the entire universe not defeat humans with iron chariots? doesn't this seem kind of contradictory?

[Ryokan]

*cough* ??

[Hypervalor]

what happen if it was a lie?

[Ryokan]

If what was a lie, the bible? well if this part of the bible is inaccurate then the whole bible loses credibility.

[Hypervalor]

but what happen if the bible was a writing story, (not a true story)?

[mafiamanjoe]

Does that make knowledge a sin? and what do you think about the bible passage in Judges 1:19 "And The Lord was with Judah, and they drove out the inhabitants of the hill, but they could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley for they had iron chariots." Why could The Lord not defeat iron chariots? isn't The Lord God? Why could the one who created the entire universe not defeat humans with iron chariots? doesn't this seem kind of contradictory?

Knowledge isn't a sin. Adam & Eve disobeying the command of God to not eat of the tree was a sin. Why did he not want them to eat from the tree, we can only speculate. I'm sure there have been Bible scholars who came up with reasons but I do not know them nor am I a Bible scholar.

And being that I am not a Bible scholar, I actually am not familiar with that particular verse in Judges that you referenced nor do I know how/why you came to reference that one verse unless of course, it is a big red flag on Atheist webpages (which I just discovered after researching your question).

I don't have a lot of time here at work nowadays (hence my absence from this site recently) and I can only briefly research for you. Before researching, I could speculate that the Lord was with Judah for encouragement, not empowerment. If God created the universe, iron chariots (which he created the iron) would not pose any problem. He could think them out of existance... poof, iron chariots gone. There is almost always more to it than one verse.... so I read some more.

Move ahead to chapter two. Judges 2:1-4
"And an angel of the LORD came up from Gilgal to Bochim, and said, I made you to go up out of Egypt, and have brought you unto the land which I sware unto your fathers; and I said, I will never break my covenant with you. 2 And ye shall make no league with the inhabitants of this land; ye shall throw down their altars: but ye have not obeyed my voice: why have ye done this? 3 Wherefore I also said, I will not drive them out from before you; but they shall be as thorns in your sides, and their gods shall be a snare unto you. 4 And it came to pass, when the angel of the LORD spake these words unto all the children of Israel, that the people lifted up their voice, and wept."

So my non-Bible scholar mind interpretation of this is that apparently there was disobedience of some sort and God chose not to have them "drive the inhabitants out". The same way I don't know for certain why God said don't eat the fruit, I personally don't know the reason for this verse(s).

5 verses prior can be easily (and amusingly) misinterpreted: "And it came to pass, when she came to him, that she moved him to ask of her father a field: and she lighted from off her ass; and Caleb said unto her, What wilt thou?"

One thing to keep in mind is that if one (or several people) cannot answer the questions concerning the Bible, it does not make the Bible inaccurate. Not everyone, even Christians, can interpret a large portion of the Bible. That's what preachers are for... and sometimes even they can be wrong or not know.

So, hypervalor, what if it's not true? Then you have nothing to worry about. But what if it IS true?

[mafiamanjoe]

The first one did not translate right so putting a second one is not helpful.

[mafiamanjoe]

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For example, this is directly translated from Yahoo Babel Fish....

Star You and I said the words I also remembered Was only the years passes the motley once sentiment Although I think our sentiment May not be love Dear ones Friendship But this was insisting anything passed anything to fade from the memory not right Your I am barely alive on the years wall mark already am also smoothed by the rain water Whose rumor so-called eternal is we You said really must remain the moral nature not to tell sorely painstakingly I Will not trust other any us finally to depart from this dracena years freely us once will be how may not be able to stand off the bustling place diligently several to be enchanting finally I to think that this was called helpless right us only to be able helplessly to look flowed to the nihility chastely, regardless of how closely gripped Also only then ice-cold air prostration

[Tauwarrior]

Religion has its up and downs

some ouse it to keep their hopes up and some use it to ``justify`` their hatred of others.


if you really want to really want to argue this with me then send me a pm, this is the last time im in here.
ps: dont send me a stupid pm over how im wrong just b/c i am, i havent insulted anyone's religion so theres no need to insult me over stating a fact about religion in general.

[Tauwarrior]

but what happen if the bible was a writing story, (not a true story)?

even if there was proof, many wouldnt think it was true simply b/c they couldnt

[Ryokan]

Maiamanjoe, as I recall, you once stated that the bible is easily understandable, and that you could understand it easily as a child. Doesn't this contradict your most recent statement that people understand the bible differently and often need other people to translate it for them?

[mafiamanjoe]

Well, I had to go read up on what I had actually said. The post from 9/4/08 where I was replying to you said both parts of what you're questioning. Except you left out a little detail. What I had actually said was that I read the beginning of the Bible as a child... not the whole thing. Then in the same post, I talked about Bible scholars and preachers. So no contradiction. :)

The first seven pages of the Bible would be Genesis beginning with the creation of the world. I assume you mean the pages following the creation section because the first several verses are quite clear. I read them as a child and it made sense to me. I don't want to sound like I am insulting your intelligence.. as I am certainly not. Regardless of your understanding of the first seven pages, you can't say that the rest of the Bible must have contradictions because it needs to be translated (or taught from a preacher). A preacher, in most part, is a Bible scholar who spends lots of time studying the Bible and passes on their knowledge of the Bible to others. Think of school. You aren't expected to pick up a Spanish Book and learn on your own... you are taught by a Spanish teacher.. or learn math from a Math teacher, and so on. You wouldn't say that there are contradictions in those books because someone had to translate or explain the information in them.

It sounds like you're looking for answers. I am glad to do my best to provide them. But really, if I answered every question you could ever possibly ask, would it change your mind about God? In other words, you seem to be looking for knowledge, not peace of mind. Just an observation, not an insult.

[JohnnyJet]

I dont know the fancy term for it, but i am not open to religon and i dont belive in any of it. I am not Christan, Athiest, Morman, etc. Im gonna start a new religon called Stop thinking about who made earth and go live. Because people spend years of thier life wasting it on "who created all of this" I dont know but you should stop worrying about this and live a life of liveing.

p.s "Kronow" created this

[Hypervalor]

Kronow? is not him the coder? why he is in religion discussion? :P he is god? :P

[mafiamanjoe]

I dont know the fancy term for it, but i am not open to religon and i dont belive in any of it. I am not Christan, Athiest, Morman, etc. Im gonna start a new religon called Stop thinking about who made earth and go live. Because people spend years of thier life wasting it on "who created all of this" I dont know but you should stop worrying about this and live a life of liveing.

p.s "Kronow" created this


Wow, ok so you don't believe in any of it and you are not open to any of it. That's not even agnostic so I also don't know a fancy term for it. haha

People have different interests. Some are interested in cooking, some in who created the earth, some in mmorpgs... If people are interested in who created the earth, they have every right to try to learn all they want about it. No one is required to "waste their lives" trying to discover these things.

Enjoy your life... but what's more important, you need to know what happens when you die. If you don't believe anything happens, great. You just have to hope you're right. For those of us who believe in Heaven/Hell and have prepared... if we are wrong and nothing happens, we have nothing to lose.

[Hypervalor]

Yeah, enjoying your life is the most important :D

Death is unavoidable.

[fatso6996]

Adam and Eve's children. They must have reproduced with their mother to have brought more children to the world. OR Adam and Eve had another child, a girl and then the 2 males must have reproduced with their sister... either way, they bible at that point promotes incest. Where normally it says that incest is wrong.

i believe that adam and eve were like gods science project to see if he was to give humans everything would there be any sin. and i believe that there were already ppl on earth when this happen. that way evolution still exists. i also believe that 1 day to god is like 1billon years to us. so when ppl were made on the (what ever) day it was really a long time